Yep, just you.

(Sorry, I think I deleted the question after I posted the same reply twice)

Is it just me?

Racquetball is just a game (to me). I don't take it as serious as some people at MNP.

I stopped looking at MNP for a long time because of the tone and viciousness of some people. The same people who often say it's just innocent humor.

I don't like reading mean posts and personal attacks, against anyone. I wonder how many others are tired, or already left MNP for the same reason?

Just saw a story on TV about some people tired about certain Facebook posts.

Funny you posted that! I thought about posting something similar after certain people attacked you for simply trying to answer a post about doubles' serving (this is a pattern coming from a long time ago, grow up people!). IMO even though I don't even know you, you are a great asset to this forum!! You have always come out with ideas to how to make racquetball better, have made graphics available to answer peoples' questions about the game, even posted videos of your own instruction!, etc. You have shown also class when people attacked your ideology or disagree with you.....but I can't say the same about many bitter people who frequent this forum and try to destroy everyone and everything! I don't want to know what's in their mind but one thing I know for sure is that it is not a pretty picture!!

I don't post here often because of this exact reason!. I don't mind healthy criticism but I dislike bullies!

I personally thank you for your contributions Jordan! and for all the haters out there, all I can say is you are/have ruined this forum to many because of your viciousness towards some just expressing their opinions!

Sad that this is the place they have chosen to ventilate their anger!

Now haters, go ahead and try destroying me for saying something nice about Jordan. I am a nice person and NO ONE will change that....and that is just the way I see it. I come back here because of the love I have for the sport but the forum is dying because of you.

Nobody has a problem with you voicing your opinions, Jordan.

Your problem seems to come when you state your opinions as facts. Evasive arguing and selective memory don't help.

Disagreeing with you is not bullying. Calling you out is not hatred. Complaints about your persecution are whining.

I stopped visiting MNP because of Control Freak, Vic, Denny and a few others. I wondered if the attacks were personal, or disagreements with my posts?

So I did a simple test on my last post. I posted something called “Jordan's Rule” http://meetandplay.com/Thread/View/17070?page=2that was actually posted six years ago by a rules expert who wrote the Official Racquetball Rules. I was taught the same version of this rule when I first competed and taught back in 1977 and still apply these methods.

What happened? Well here are the actual posts:

My original “Jordan Rule” post:

Obviously, not every rule can be printed in the Official Racquetball Rules. Example:
My Jordan Penalty Hinder Rule (Not in the Rulebook)

When the offending player has time to move, but doesn't, I don't care care what kind of shot is taken away, I will likely call a Penalty Hinder.

But, when there is no time to move, then I also consider the quality of the shot that was taken away and apply the offensive shot criteria to determine if it was a Replay Hinder, Penalty Hinder or No Hinder.

This “Jordan Rule” is not in the rulebook, but is one rule I learned a long time ago, and that most experts will agree with.

BTW: Denny and Control Freak. I never said I was a rules expert. Instead of me having to prove my posts, why don't you cite any rules or expert explanations? If I was a rules expert, would I still need to prove what I said :)

Here are the replies to this post...

---

Control Freak wrote:

Jordan
This “Jordan Rule” is not in the rulebook, but is one rule I learned a long time ago, and that most experts will agree with.

another steaming bucket of crap

-------------

Backhandsplat wrote:
I don't like agreeing with CF but Jordan your rules are pretty bizarre. Your penalty hinder "rule" would have people drilling each other to game it. The standard rules work pretty well, your "additions" are not helpful.

-------------

Vic Heat Fan wrote:

BackhandSplat
I don't like agreeing with CF but Jordan your rules are pretty bizarre. Your penalty hinder "rule" would have people drilling each other to game it. The standard rules work pretty well, your "additions" are not helpful.

Double Bingo!

You have to admit though, Jordan's complete arrogance does make for great comedy! "Good instructors always.... Blah blah... ". Bahahahahahaha!

CF is a better man than me though. I can't actually read every word Jordan spews on here. Does anone else just kind of skim once you realize it's all nonsense?

And Jordan was wondering why all his posts were getting "disliked" before! Bahahahahahah.

Keep posting Jordan! We all need to keep laughing!

--------------

Vic Heat Fan then added:

Control Freak
Jordan, you're entitled to your preferences, but not to creating new rules.

Such posts are a disservice to lower players trying to learn the game who might confuse you with being an authority.

On a serious note, that's very true. It's a shame to have such a bad influence on here pretending to be an authority. I sincerely feel bad for his students.

-------
Here is the original post regarding my “Jordan Rule” from six years ago, written by “the” rules expert. I don't write as good as Otto, so I changed a few words so no one would think I was posting from someone else. Obviously they didn't :)

02 Jan 2006 13:07:30
Otto Dietrich
Re: ref. use of "local intrepretation" ?

Hi Again Dan

The reason that I do NOT stress it in my writings is that it is NOT part of
the rule as it is written!

It is, however, a factor that I suggest applying in certain circumstances
where the rule is too general to be practical.

For example, if the offending player has time to move, but doesn't, then who
cares what kind of shot is taken away? That's a penalty hinder.

But, when there is no time to move, then I also consider the quality of the
shot that was taken away and apply the offensive shot criteria. That
distinction is NOT in the rulebook, but one that most experts agree with.

At your service,

Otto

OTTO E. DIETRICH
National Rules Commissioner
USA Racquetball
"Play by the Rules"
http://www.usaracquetball.com/Default.aspx?tabid=839

I never said I was an rules expert, although I posted a statement (above) by OTTO E. DIETRICH, National Rules Commissioner, USA Racquetball, that was attacked only because some bullies thought it was "my" statement.

If a rules statement from the National Rules Commissioner of racquetball is attacked and made fun of, how afraid would the average person be to post a rules question or reply?

Sorry about the length of that last post. Thanks again Juan.

You were criticized because you called those plagiarized words from Mr. Dietriech "the Jordan Rule," and gave it the color of law by saying "not every rule can be printed in the Official Racquetball Rules."

Thanks for doing the research. You've now documented the point your critics made about that post: The "Jordan Rule" is not a rule of racquetball.

Jordan

I never said I was an rules expert, although I posted a statement (above) by OTTO E. DIETRICH, National Rules Commissioner, USA Racquetball, that was attacked only because some bullies thought it was "my" statement.

I'm not sure you're testing what you think you're testing.

Otto's post was in the context of a newsgroup thread in which a ref wasn't calling avoidables because the players weren't otherwise hitting kill shots.

The posting of "Jordan's Rule" lacked this context and reads much more broadly without it. Not caring "what kind of shot is taken away" would suggest pinches, 3 wall boasts, etc. should be called penalty hinders. And that broad interpretation would be consistent with some of your past assertions that sparked disagreement.

Matt

Jordan,

I feel it's best to just not give a sh!t what people think or say.

I think it's natural for people to say what they want and/or not get along. Although I think it's a lot easier to say anything you want over the internet.

I remember having a spat with Jman and Kathy over god knows what like 5 years ago, but it's all water under the bridge to me.

I think everyone has had a fight with Kathy lol. Where the heck has she been?

Jordan, if you post things publicly people are going to have opinions. My advice is have a thick skin and move on. Don't sweat it, I think it's my job to fix the point system so it's more fair and people don't feel like they are getting bullied.

I do think you bring a lot of good content, but I think most people are rubbed the wrong way with my word is law type of opinions. I think what you are seeing is a result of your own strong opinions, strong opinions back. That's why you guys are getting so amped up over racquetball, and frankly most of the people that come here are pretty involved to some extent so that's bound to happen.

mdhills

Jordan

I never said I was an rules expert, although I posted a statement (above) by OTTO E. DIETRICH, National Rules Commissioner, USA Racquetball, that was attacked only because some bullies thought it was "my" statement.

I'm not sure you're testing what you think you're testing.

Otto's post was in the context of a newsgroup thread in which a ref wasn't calling avoidables because the players weren't otherwise hitting kill shots.

The posting of "Jordan's Rule" lacked this context and reads much more broadly without it. Not caring "what kind of shot is taken away" would suggest pinches, 3 wall boasts, etc. should be called penalty hinders. And that broad interpretation would be consistent with some of your past assertions that sparked disagreement.

I should have known you would have this researched, Matt. And I think that what you referenced here goes to the heart of the problem. Jordan argued back then:

"Let me try to explain the Rulebook should NEVER be taken literally for EVERY rule, since there are some possible contradictions to some of the more complex
rules, like Hinders and Avoidables."

If the rulebook isn't the definitive authority on the rules of racquetball, then what is? Why, we know from what he posts here in this forum -- it's JORDAN KAHN, of course !

Juan,

I certainly would not attack you in any way for speaking your mind. I have always respected what you have to say, and that certainly has not changed. Kudos to you for stepping up for what you believe, although I feel you are misguided.

Additionally "Mea Culpa" regarding yanking Jordan's chain about how verbose he is. He made a NY resolution year before last about using less words to make his own point, and I have picked at that on a handful of occasions. I had previously stated that would not go into attack mode unless attacked, and regarding the teasing on his abundant use of verbiage, I didnt hold up my end. My bad - and I will make a concerted effort to curb that.

That said, this is a message board. When anyone, including Jordan, states things that I dont agree with, there's a good chance I will chime in with an opinion on the content. More often than not, I disagree with the CONTENT of what Jordan has to say, as well as his delivery. The rules af racquetball are good. Shots that have you aim 12 inches above someone's head are not simple or easy. etc....

I have a problem with anyone who states this in the forum that "All good instructors would..." rather than saying "I teach my students to..." . Jordan has an opinion, and he is entitled to it. But as everyone esle has stated, he doesnt present his ideas as opinion, he states it as fact. That's why me, and apparently many others are rubbed wrong by Jordan. If he simply changed style to saying "I feel....." rather than "Any good instructor would say" I am guessing he wouldnt have so many people annoyed with his style.

That said, I personally would still disagree with much of the content of what he has to say. And when appropriate, I will chime in. Especially when IN MY HUMBLE OPINION he gives bad advice to newbies.

Jordan

(Sorry, I think I deleted the question after I posted the same reply twice)

Is it just me?

Racquetball is just a game (to me). I don't take it as serious as some people at MNP.

I stopped looking at MNP for a long time because of the tone and viciousness of some people. The same people who often say it's just innocent humor.

I don't like reading mean posts and personal attacks, against anyone. I wonder how many others are tired, or already left MNP for the same reason?

Just saw a story on TV about some people tired about certain Facebook posts.

I'm all for civility. I prefer to state disagreements online using the same degree of politeness that I would use if disagreeing in person with a good friend, even if it’s someone who I’ve never communicated with before.

There are some amazing displays of incivility on the web, but rarely more than minor snarky comments and jabs on this forum.

One of the worst incivility examples that I’ve seen outside of this forum was on Youtube dealing with a video of Jim Croce and his accompanying guitarist playing a song.

One poster asked something like, "What ever happened to the guitarist playing with Croce in this video? Never heard from him after Croce died."

A responder answered (I'm paraphrasing here), "You f'ing idiot. The other guitarist died at the same time as Croce. Fool!!!"

(Clearly the responder has such severe feelings of inadequacy that tearing down another person is necessary for him, instead of simply posting: "Sadly, the accompanying guitarist died in the plane crash that also took Croce's life.")

I've always thought that this forum is one of more polite places on the web. I haven't posted in a couple years for reasons unrelated to any civility concerns. I haven't read everything posted on this forum, but I've generally tried to follow the postings.

I've never seen any of that type of Youtube incivility per the Croce example here at this forum.

Jordan, you have a history with some other posters leading to long-running feuds. Those other posters include at least those you called out in your below post in which you discuss your previous "trap" post quoting Otto Dietrich initially without attribution.

Your feuds started before I was following the forum, but I have to be honest with you. Despite your vast knowledge, passion for the sport, and your very useful graphics for illustrating racquetball situations, all of which I greatly admire you for, you have two tendencies that probably lead to the feuds. First, you have some unusual ideas. Second, and more importantly, it's likely that you were condescending with others as you were quite condescending in dealing with me, despite my politeness. (It’s OK. My feelings were not hurt.)

(See your posts, some quite condescending, and my responsive posts about the "blocking the ball from being a rally winning non-returnable shot" being a penalty hinder, interspersed with other comments, beginning about message 90 to message 113 http://www.meetandplay.com/Thread/View/13807?page=5 and the following page, the outcome of which was ruled in favor of Control Freak's and my position by Otto Dietrich per http://www.meetandplay.com/Thread/View/14008/.)

Unusual ideas are easy to respond to. In appropriate cases, one can refute them, preferably in a civil fashion. One should keep an open mind because unusual ideas are sometimes right. However, when the person pushing those unusual ideas is condescending to those who dare to disagree, and often seems to display arrogance, this can lead to the type of feuds in which you find yourself.

In my opinion, you may bring some (all?) of the jabs/snarky comments on yourself by condescending, arrogant posts to and about those who disagree with you.

I can't say that you've never been mistreated by others, but, IMHO, it is not accurate to use "bullying" to describe those negative comments highlighted in your "test" post or any negative comments posted so far on this thread. Bullying to me would involve threats of some sort (or a bigger kid taking your lunch money).

I admire you for your graphics. Your posts are often thought-provoking, even when I disagree with your rule interpretations. I hope that you keep posting and I wish you well.

If you don't buy my beliefs that you bring some problems on yourself and that the negative posts are no big deal, that's OK. If it helps you, just think "Don't let the bastards get you down." However, you’ll probably be happier in the long run if you stop condescending, which will lead to the feud eventually dying down. Also, get a thick skin as Will and Reid have said in separate posts.

I think the whole forum has changed after the new look came about.

I don't remember a time the forum would go 15 hours without a post before that.

This at one time was very popular but attacks and bullying caused others to leave and not revisit or just visit to see what other things are being mentioned.

I was called a "trouble maker" by a IRT Top Pro's father.

Most likely because I expressed my thoughts about being surprised this top pro player lost to an unranked player at a satellite event.

Really easy to offend people.

Manny

Hey Manny!

Long time, no see .. .. hard to imagine that you could offend anyone .. I've always seen you as polite and respectful on this forum.

It is easy though to hurt people's feelings - especially on the internet - because we're much bolder on the internet than we would probably be in person .. .. there's an anonymity associated with sitting at the keyboard, I think that enables us to communicate without the filters we usually use. At least I know that's one of my defects.

Anyway, my point was, I've always seen your posts as enthusiastically supporting the sport with the occasional thought provoking question thrown in ..

fwiw, denny

Denny E

Hey Manny!

Long time, no see .. .. hard to imagine that you could offend anyone .. I've always seen you as polite and respectful on this forum.

It is easy though to hurt people's feelings - especially on the internet - because we're much bolder on the internet than we would probably be in person .. .. there's an anonymity associated with sitting at the keyboard, I think that enables us to communicate without the filters we usually use. At least I know that's one of my defects.

Anyway, my point was, I've always seen your posts as enthusiastically supporting the sport with the occasional thought provoking question thrown in ..

fwiw, denny

Thank you Denny!

I have learned a lot over the 8 years I have been a part of MNP.

Manny

Coach Manny

I think the whole forum has changed after the new look came about.

I don't remember a time the forum would go 15 hours without a post before that.

This at one time was very popular but attacks and bullying caused others to leave and not revisit or just visit to see what other things are being mentioned.

Manny

I RESPECTFULLY disagree.

I think MNP has primarily declined due to the rise in competition.
1. Facebook/Youtube - people can talk directly to top players/coaches to get advice and post publicly, as opposed to arguing with no-name people/trolls.
2. IRTNetwork/R2 Sports - Diehards do not need to come to the forum to read Brian's excellent play-by-plays, they can either track r2 or go to the IRTNetwork and follow there.
3. Other forums - 40x20, state associations, etc. have an easier time setting these things up than "back in the day" and draw people away from the central forum.

The only thing about MNP itself that I think has driven people away IMO has been it's tendency to be down sporadically. I think that actually now people are far more respectful than they were previously, and most of the "Bullies" are spending their time elsewhere.

Yeap its just you!

Jordan - your posts are way too verbose. You don't need to go on and on, we can understand. Concise works best on internet comments and forums.