In the spirit of moving this forum up in the rankings, I'll ask a question that I could probably google or look up elsewhere.

If someone serves a z serve and it hits the right in the crack of the front wall and the side wall is that a good serve?

TIA!

Never mind... found it I think:

(g) Crotch Serve. Any served ball that hits the crotch of the front wall and floor, front wall and side wall, or front wall and ceiling is an out serve (because it did not hit the front wall first). A serve into the crotch of the back wall and floor is a good serve and in play. A served ball that hits the crotch of the side wall and floor beyond the short line is in play.

Ah ha. Okay, the guy I played tonight did that a couple of times, but we weren't sure on the rule, so he got the point. Now I know.

The serve is required to hit the front wall before hitting any other surface.

Hitting the seam between front and sidewall is an out serve (as is hitting front+floor or front+ceiling).


When thinking about the rules for long serves or 3-wall serves, the requirement is that the serve must not hit the 3rd or back wall before hitting the floor. So in this case, the seams are good and are not fault serves.


Matt

I always thought this was a poor rule. If it hits the crotch, it is hitting the front wall first. It's also hitting the side wall at the same time. semantics I know, but.....

The rule IMO should read, that it has to hit only the front wall first.

81artmonk

I always thought this was a poor rule. If it hits the crotch, it is hitting the front wall first. It's also hitting the side wall at the same time. semantics I know, but.....

The rule IMO should read, that it has to hit only the front wall first.

That would be a good clarification of the rule for sure.

The rule is already pretty clear, it has to hit the front wall first. If it hits the crotch, then it hits the front wall and side wall at the same time. That's not hitting the front wall first. Out serve.

I blame the confusion on the modern trend towards declaring everyone as first-place finishers. This rule was written back in a cruel era where first meant ahead of the others, which implies that some could be losers, which we can't have in this day and age.

On a more serious note, although I think the rule is clear as written, we do get questions about it here semi-frequently, so it probably could be improved.

Matt

(g) Crotch Serve. Any served ball that hits the crotch of the front wall and floor, front wall and side wall, or front wall and ceiling is an out serve (because it did not hit the front wall first). A serve into the crotch of the back wall and floor is a good serve and in play. A served ball that hits the crotch of the side wall and floor beyond the short line is in play.

I think it could be a little clearer or at least simpler. As it says in the rule "(because it did not hit the front wall first)". So, the implication is that it has to hit the front wall *first*, so in this case hitting the front wall and side wall at the same time =/= hitting the front wall first.

Yet, a serve that hits the crotch of the back wall and floor IS a good serve because it hit the floor and the back wall at the same time, so in this case hitting the crotch does = hitting the floor first.

So, the logic isn't consistent.

Seems like the rule could be at least simplified by just taking the text in parentheses out. It's not really relevant right? Just say if it hits any front wall crotch it's not good. Easy peasy.

I agree. This has been discussed in the past (years ago) about rewording or adding a few sentences to the rules. Most of the rules have prior reference to the rule, which only helps if you knew there was a prior reference, and where it was!

The “Crotch Shot” is one example, since the explanation that the serve must hit the front wall FIRST is at this rule:

USAR Official Rules:

Rule 3.3 - Manner
After taking a set position inside the service zone, a player may begin the service motion--any continuous movement that results in the ball being served. Once the service motion begins, when the ball leaves the hand, it must next bounce on the floor in the zone and then, without touching anything else, be struck by the racquet before it bounces on the floor a second time. After being struck, the ball must hit the front wall first and on the rebound hit the floor beyond the back edge of the short line, either with or without touching one of the side walls.

Source - http://usra.org/Rulebook/tabid/839/RuleID/16/Default.aspx

Perhaps a simple and easy reference to the two rules could be added (see below in italics).

Current Rules

3.10 Out Serves

f) Non-Front Wall Serve. Any served ball that does not strike the front wall first.

(g) Crotch Serve. Any served ball that hits the crotch of the front wall and floor, front wall and side wall, or front wall and ceiling is an out serve (because it did not hit the front wall first). A serve into the crotch of the back wall and floor is a good serve and in play. A served ball that hits the crotch of the side wall and floor beyond the short line is in play.

Source - http://usra.org/Rulebook/tabid/839/RuleID/23/Default.aspx

Possible Modification? (see below in italics).

f) Non-Front Wall Serve. Any served ball that does not strike the front wall first, including a Crotch Serve {Rule 3.10 g}.

(g) Crotch Serve. Any served ball that hits the crotch of the front wall and floor, front wall and side wall, or front wall and ceiling is an out serve (because it did not hit the front wall first {See Non-Front Wall Serve Rule 3.10 f}). A serve into the crotch of the back wall and floor is a good serve and in play. A served ball that hits the crotch of the side wall and floor beyond the short line is in play.

snarlla

(g) Crotch Serve. Any served ball that hits the crotch of the front wall and floor, front wall and side wall, or front wall and ceiling is an out serve (because it did not hit the front wall first). A serve into the crotch of the back wall and floor is a good serve and in play. A served ball that hits the crotch of the side wall and floor beyond the short line is in play.

I think it could be a little clearer or at least simpler. As it says in the rule "(because it did not hit the front wall first)". So, the implication is that it has to hit the front wall *first*, so in this case hitting the front wall and side wall at the same time =/= hitting the front wall first.

Yet, a serve that hits the crotch of the back wall and floor IS a good serve because it hit the floor and the back wall at the same time, so in this case hitting the crotch does = hitting the floor first.

So, the logic isn't consistent.

Seems like the rule could be at least simplified by just taking the text in parentheses out. It's not really relevant right? Just say if it hits any front wall crotch it's not good. Easy peasy.

The logic is consistent. Front wall/side wall does not hit the front wall first. Floor/side wall does not hit the side wall first (if it hit the side wall first it's a 3 wall shot).

dbarry14

snarlla

(g) Crotch Serve. Any served ball that hits the crotch of the front wall and floor, front wall and side wall, or front wall and ceiling is an out serve (because it did not hit the front wall first). A serve into the crotch of the back wall and floor is a good serve and in play. A served ball that hits the crotch of the side wall and floor beyond the short line is in play.

I think it could be a little clearer or at least simpler. As it says in the rule "(because it did not hit the front wall first)". So, the implication is that it has to hit the front wall *first*, so in this case hitting the front wall and side wall at the same time =/= hitting the front wall first.

Yet, a serve that hits the crotch of the back wall and floor IS a good serve because it hit the floor and the back wall at the same time, so in this case hitting the crotch does = hitting the floor first.

So, the logic isn't consistent.

Seems like the rule could be at least simplified by just taking the text in parentheses out. It's not really relevant right? Just say if it hits any front wall crotch it's not good. Easy peasy.

The logic is consistent. Front wall/side wall does not hit the front wall first. Floor/side wall does not hit the side wall first (if it hit the side wall first it's a 3 wall shot).

That's not the shot I was talking about, but I disagree with this as well. You could just as easily say "Floor/side wall does not hit the floor first (so it is a 3 wall shot)." Because it doesn't hit the floor first AND it doesn't hit the side wall first. It hits them both at the same time. LOL.

So, what I was talking about was a long serve. If it hits the front wall and side wall at the same time, according to the rule, it is considered to NOT have hit the front wall first, even though it hit both at the same time so it couldn't have hit one first and one second.

If it hits the back wall and floor at the same time it is considered to be a good serve because it DID hit the floor first, again, even though it couldn't have hit one first and one second the same as in the first case.

In both situations it's essentially a tie between the front wall/side wall or the floor/back wall, but in one case the ball is considered NOT to have hit the front wall first and in the other case the ball IS considered to have hit the floor first.

Really, I don't really care about the wording of the rule as long as I understand it. I have had people tell me that the rules are logical, and all you have to do is think about which wall it hit first or something to that effect, but that's never worked for me because of the above convoluted reasoning that passes through my head as I'm trying to remember the rules.

My head hurts :)

snarlla

That's not the shot I was talking about, but I disagree with this as well. You could just as easily say "Floor/side wall does not hit the floor first (so it is a 3 wall shot)."

Seems like there are several steps at which problems can arise:

do the players know what the rules say

are the rules clear as to what they mean

do players agree on what happened

When you write "you could just as easily say..." it sounds like you are thinking of a player who does not know what the rules say, but is trying to reason out what a 3-wall serve must be based on the name of the fault alone. At some point they will need to know what the rules say. Seems like the clarity of the rules aren't too bad here:

rulebook 3.9.c

(c) Three-Wall Serve. A three-wall serve is any served ball that first hits the front wall and, on the rebound, strikes both side walls before touching the floor.

Matt

Mat knows best.

I always had non-racquetball players at the clubs I worked at proof read my racquetball instructional tips. If they understood what I was saying, almost everyone else would. You can't please everyone, but can try to make things easier.

---

OK,

Here is the short version I tell students.

Hit the crotch of the floor and front wall on a serve, both surface at the same time, the rules assume you hit the floor first.

During a serve that hits both back wall and floor crotch at the same time, use the above instructions and imagine the back wall was the front wall on a serve.

The “crotch rule” assumes the ball struck the front or back wall surface last (or other surfaces first).

This helps determine if it was a Long Serve or good serve.

This is still confusing. I explain the rule and reasons. Wait for a situation to occur during lessons and remind of the rule. Luckily this doesn't occur that often!

My head hurts too :)

---

TIP -

When writing or explaining anything, assume the audience is from the planet Mars and has no idea. You need to make it short, simple and to the point. Obviously my writing (typing) lacks these important skills. Glad no one here is from Mars (OK, possibly Control Freak?)